I agree  with Linda and Karr,  and further in my humble opinion, I believe  that  we  are  all  here to help one another with our genealogy research.  Bashing Mormons  is not part of our research, and I believe that whoever has negative comments that do not deal with research, should be dealt with privately with those that agree with such comments.  I am sure many of us don't want to waste our valuable time with pettiness.

Thank you.   - Esther Jordan

I agree wholeheartedly with you, Linda.  Through the ages, the Roman Church
as served as records-keeper for the communities in which Roman Catholicism
has taken root.  As such, the clergy became public servants, dutifully
recording important "legal" events which occurred in their
jurisdiction--such as births, baptisms, marriages and deaths.  Now, the
Church has blurred the boundaries between religion and government by
withholding what is by any reasonable definition public information.  I feel
certain that those innocent citizens who allowed the clergy to create and
maintain these records never expected the information to be suppressed by
those same clerics.  

The Pope has stepped away from his role as religious leader, in order to
make a political statement against the Mormon Church--which has no basis in
Scripture, nor in formal Church teachings.  Not only is it a petty move,
analogous to taking home one's bat and mitt, but it is an abrogation of the
implicit contract the Church had with these communities--to keep records, in
lieu of local government.

It's not just the genealogists who will suffer, should the Vatican maintain
its stance.  It betrays all of those who relied on their local church to
partially perform the duties of local government.

Karr

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I agree. In either case, neither one of the two sides will change their
views. The question is what can we do about this? There was a comment on
another note if the Vatican is going to deny access to those records perhaps
they should do as the Mormons in the sense that they should set up family
centers to grant access to those who want to solely look at historical
records.
--
America Calleros

Felix -- you said "In my eyes, this is not a controversy about the
Catholics Church withholding religious (not government) records from
LDS; but the abuse by LDS of the privilege to access the records of
another religion....I support any effort to convince LDS to stop abusing this privilege".

I think what Karr meant was that the Church was the State before separation of the two, and those old Catholic records functioned as civil records. Scholars and other approved learned people had access to them for genealogical and other purposes even then. Also, I would hope that the LDS church would not remove the Catholic records as they did the Jewish records after they realized the re-baptisms were abuse of the privelege of obtaining the records, but leave them in for our perusal with the understanding that they would only desist in classifying them as baptized Mormons.

Emilie
----- Original Message -----
From: Felix De La Torre
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] The Pope and the Mormons

I disagree with this view. The Catholic Church is a religion; not a
government. While I agree that the Pope's decision is unfortunate for
those of us with interest in genealogical work, I believe directing our
criticisms at the Catholic Church ignores the fact that another religion
is using the Church's records for improper purposes; purposes that
offend the Catholic religion. Each religion has its own doctrines and
beliefs. So to argue that it does not hurt the Catholic Church to have
another religion use its own records to perform acts that offend its
beliefs is to ignore the fundamental reason any religions exist. The
Catholic Church is not telling Mormons how to practice their religion;
it is simply saying that we are not going to be accomplices to acts that
offend ours. Perhaps efforts should be made to ask the LDS to stop
baptizing deceased Catholics, which is the real reason that the Catholic
Church has closed its doors to LDS. The use of the records was a
privilege, which the LDS abused.

I also think it is somewhat ironic to claim that the Pope's decision has
not basis in Scripture. I find that the LDS decision to baptize
deceased Catholics has no basis in LDS philosophy. Most non-Mormons are
aware of LDS's interest in genealogy, but most people do not know the
reason for this interest. Of course there's nothing wrong with being
interested in genealogy, but it's far from just an interest for the LDS.
For the LDS, the whole point behind genealogical work is the idea that
those who died as non-Mormons can be baptized vicariously and thus
become Mormons posthumously. Before anyone can go to an LDS temple and,
among other things, be baptized for the dead, he first must be judged
worthy to go there. A person can't just show up at the temple doors and
expect admittance. No one is given entrance without producing a current
"temple recommend," rather like a spiritual identification card, which
certifies his status as a righteous Mormon. In other words, if I wanted
to be baptized Mormon, I would have to be judged worthy before being
baptized. Yet, deceased Catholics are baptized posthumously without any
evidence that they desired to become Mormons or believe in the Mormon
doctrines.

I also strongly disagree that deceased Catholics would be upset that the
Pope took steps to keep LDS from offending Catholic beliefs. On the
contrary, deceased Catholics would be overwhelmingly disturbed by the
arrogance of LDS to select their religion, given the evidence that their
choice was to be Catholic. My grandfather was a devote Catholic and
would be mortified to learn that the LDS posthumously baptized him into
their religion; a religion he does not belong to, or believe in. This
holds true for the deceased Catholic popes that have been posthumously
baptized by LDS. Catholics are not the only ones protesting these acts.
Jews, too, have expressed their anger at LDS. This issue boiled over
when LDS baptized holocaust victims, including people like Anne Frank.
This protest led to a 1995 agreement by LDS to remove 400,000 Jewish
names from its records. In my eyes, this is not a controversy about the
Catholics Church withholding religious (not government) records from
LDS; but the abuse by LDS of the privilege to access the records of
another religion.

I support any effort to convince LDS to stop abusing this privilege.

-----Original Message-----
From: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of Karr
Wolfe
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 7:37 AM
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] The Pope and the Mormons

I agree wholeheartedly with you, Linda. Through the ages, the Roman
Church
as served as records-keeper for the communities in which Roman
Catholicism
has taken root. As such, the clergy became public servants, dutifully
recording important "legal" events which occurred in their
jurisdiction--such as births, baptisms, marriages and deaths. Now, the
Church has blurred the boundaries between religion and government by
withholding what is by any reasonable definition public information. I
feel
certain that those innocent citizens who allowed the clergy to create
and
maintain these records never expected the information to be suppressed
by
those same clerics.

The Pope has stepped away from his role as religious leader, in order to
make a political statement against the Mormon Church--which has no basis
in
Scripture, nor in formal Church teachings. Not only is it a petty move,
analogous to taking home one's bat and mitt, but it is an abrogation of
the
implicit contract the Church had with these communities--to keep
records, in
lieu of local government.

It's not just the genealogists who will suffer, should the Vatican
maintain
its stance. It betrays all of those who relied on their local church to
partially perform the duties of local government.

Karr

This is a very interesting view, I am a Mormon. I nmy opinion I believe we should only baptize those who are in our family in respect to the catholic church. We have the right to baptize those who are in relation to us. One thing I dont agree with my church is baptizing just anyone without any consent of another party who isnt related to a person. For example I baptize my ancestors because I descend from them, Im not gonna go around baptzing people who I have no idea who they are. We dont baptize the dead as mormons. This is a very contraversial matter. ITs very difficult to explain. I totally agree that non-mormons should be able to continue having access to these records if they were to be discontinued because geneaolgy is really about discovering who and where you came from not just to baptize people. Also, just b/c we baptize the dead doesnt mean they will accept the baptism. We believe once we baptize them they have the option to say yes or no. About your comment on the temple and the deceased no knowing anything on doctrine; we believe that all dead are taught and once someone baptises them they can choose to accept it or not.
-D. Daniel Méndez del Camino
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